tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post3417811015667167250..comments2023-10-22T03:37:37.574-04:00Comments on Baron It All: 3rd Eye Now Operational - Advice Requested (#232)Frank Baronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-90351741370373180732011-01-27T12:31:03.179-05:002011-01-27T12:31:03.179-05:00Hiya Pam. Your comment was hijacked for a while by...Hiya Pam. Your comment was hijacked for a while by Blogger's spam filter. I keep forgetting to check it.<br /><br />Hope you're ulcer-free and the paper got an A. :)Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-58961018304962262892010-12-18T01:42:50.879-05:002010-12-18T01:42:50.879-05:00Nice post Frank, and if I don't finish this pa...Nice post Frank, and if I don't finish this paper by dawn, I'll have an ulcer. Guess what it's on? The soul, a little on God, and lots on mysticism. The word mysticism trails off into so many spiral arms, I don't think it's even real anymore. I'm really into the Greeks.<br /><br />Later,<br />PamAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08320827157054332154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-70100738123392842822010-12-15T17:28:56.355-05:002010-12-15T17:28:56.355-05:00I didn't realise that you wanted me to be sile...I didn't realise that you wanted me to be silenced. I thought we were still just having a discussion, albeit a slightly tense one? I'd long since given up on discussing the original points I'd made, but I wanted to make sure we both saw eye to eye and that you understood where I was coming. It seems like you still don't, or don't want to. *sighs*Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-3192913368839416292010-12-15T17:21:23.833-05:002010-12-15T17:21:23.833-05:00Frank, having re-read your last post, I can't ...Frank, having re-read your last post, I can't help but be left with a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. You've essentially dismissed it on the basis of my apparent condescention making meaningful discussion impossible. Again, isn't what's right or wrong meaningful? I could be total asshole, and I could be really unpleasant to talk to, but that wouldn't invalidate the meaning of what I was saying. It seems you're more concerned with civility than actually getting to the essence of truth. <br /><br />And you may have had interesting discussions with all those people, but are you saying that it therefore means you've concluded that I have nothing valuable to add? It certainly seems like it. How do you know when you've barely scratched the surface of what we could discuss? That comes across as far more insulting and limiting to meaningful discussion than anything I've said to you, IMO.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-46271421219516714622010-12-15T17:14:40.025-05:002010-12-15T17:14:40.025-05:00I was told by more than a couple of people that yo...I was told by more than a couple of people that you insist on having the last word.Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-86215144796773786252010-12-15T16:55:51.341-05:002010-12-15T16:55:51.341-05:00It's not ego at all - obviously I think the lo...It's not ego at all - obviously I think the logic of my arguments is fairly tight, just as you think you're absolutely right to dismiss atheism - does that make you overweeningly egotistical too? :) <br /><br />But anyway, the arguments I presented above are not necessarily originally mine. I don't claim them as my own, so my ego is not at stake. They're merely arguments that have resonated with me because they make sense. And I certainly wasn't looking to cause aggravation. I think part of the problem here is misinterpretation. Your idea of my aggression is my idea of engagement. I do sincerely believe you hone your arguments and beliefs by defending them. If you think that it stops you from having a meaningful discussion, well I think that's a bit sad, because you haven't taken my thoughts on board in the way in which they were intended. Maybe it's that Canadian politeness getting the way of a good, wholesome debate. ;)<br /><br />I Do look forward to your thesis on meshing science and spirituality though. But what if it's complete tosh? Can we not discuss why? ;)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-15359510376872271272010-12-15T11:40:20.736-05:002010-12-15T11:40:20.736-05:00Like I said earlier Ubi, and you appear to have di...Like I said earlier Ubi, and you appear to have difficulty accepting: been-there, done-that, bought the t-shirt. I've no interest in "debating" with you. Over the years, I've engaged in thoughtful discussions with Agno-Atheist philosophers, biologists, physicists, professors of all persuasions, ex-priests and homeless guys on park benches. <br /><br />I've discussed the concept of God with native americans, church elders, priests (believers this time) Spiritualists, stoners, Pagans, Jews, Hindus, Jehovah Witnesses, Rosicrucians and guys who take lunchbuckets to work.<br /><br />I hope to have many more meaningful discussions with many other folks.<br /><br />But frankly, your o'erweening ego, as evidence by your barely concealed condescension in the above posts, gets in the way of any meaningful discussion. And life is too darn short to go looking for extra aggravation.<br /><br />What I think I'll do though, soon, is a post illustrating how Science and Spirituality can mesh. You won't want to miss it. ;)Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-58841734117232164702010-12-15T07:48:06.691-05:002010-12-15T07:48:06.691-05:00I'd like to think that if we proselytize, we p...I'd like to think that if we proselytize, we proselytize rationality rather than atheism. I should have clarified earlier that most atheists would technically classify themselves as agnostics, only because it's logically impossible to PROVE that something doesn't exist without omniscience. The absence of empirical evidence is the best that we have to go on.<br /><br />But even if it's true that we do proselytize Atheism, that doesn't make us wrong. Of course the same could be argued of evangelical Christians, although I'd rather let the rationality of arguments settle things, rather than just conclude they're both as bad as each other.<br /><br />Like I said, clearly this is not the forum to debate, particularly since you seem loathe to actually present any arguments of your own - only opinions. But I think opinions without any basis come across as pretty hollow. I'm sure you've thought about them, but in deliberately avoiding engagement with someone who might be able to offer some nugget of truth that you've never thought of before, you're limiting yourself in your 'quest' IMO. End of discussion? :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-82892568609531060702010-12-14T11:42:58.668-05:002010-12-14T11:42:58.668-05:00Ubi, it's more a matter of been-there, done-th...Ubi, it's more a matter of been-there, done-that -- a few dozen times over several decades. I've long-since learned that some atheists proselytize as fervently as the most zealous evangelical Christian.<br /><br />And, in my opinion, they're just as wrong. ;)<br /><br />Thanks for your interest. :)Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-45780373770936077982010-12-14T08:39:44.737-05:002010-12-14T08:39:44.737-05:00But that's where you (and so many other religi...But that's where you (and so many other religious people) are wrong IMO... Along with the similar idea that science is as much of a faith position as religion. It's just not true. Science is observation and experiment of things in the observable world. It doesn't claim to be the origin or explanation for the nature of the universe. It's just a framework and set of methods to deduce how stuff works - not a faith based position at all.<br /><br />And while you don't have to justify yourself to me by any means, you haven't really refuted any of my points either, only agreed to disagree. I'd like to know how you reach your conclusions. Especially since some of my points seem logically and patently true - in that black and white sense of the word 'true', that is! ;) But perhaps this is not the forum for it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-39221433228915002632010-12-13T21:00:28.941-05:002010-12-13T21:00:28.941-05:00Ubi, you put me in mind of my University days, a b...Ubi, you put me in mind of my University days, a bunch of us sitting around at the pub and waxing philosophical. :)<br /><br />I found the Minchin thing to be a tad precious for my taste - but again - to each his own, eh?<br /><br />And Ubi my friend, you do indeed have a god. You call him Science. ;)Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-28453998471498860192010-12-13T18:06:30.294-05:002010-12-13T18:06:30.294-05:00Not trying to start a fiery, neverending debate, b...Not trying to start a fiery, neverending debate, but if you think that spirituality is able to find truth then perhaps we have very different definitions of truth. :) I'm not talking about the sort of fuzzy truth that is different for different people, I'm talking about actual truths. Things that are objectively and verifiably true. <br /><br />Like the logical proposition that there either is or isn't a creator/deity/God. If one person believes in them and the other doesn't, it follows that one person is 100% wrong and the other is 100% right. Until you can boil it down to these logical propositions, it all seems to wishy-washy to me. You can go on your spiritual journey of discovery, and it may make you happy (which is great), but it doesn't get you any closer to knowing the truth IMO. Feeling like something is right just doesn't make it truthful. <br /><br />I just think it's kind of staggering that we can accept so easily the wishy-washyness that we apply to spirituality when we wouldn't accept it for any other aspect of our lives. <br /><br />But anyway, look, I don't want to beat my point into you with mallet - I've said more than enough. :) <br /><br />Instead, just let me leave you with a rather amusing but powerfully persuasive video clip by another fellow Aussie, Tim Minchin, that sums up my ideas on that frustratingly vague and wispy concept of spirituality:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw<br /><br />I hope you enjoy it, even if you can't bring yourself to see life from a skeptic's point of view. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-57321644681025125352010-12-13T13:48:05.688-05:002010-12-13T13:48:05.688-05:00Thanks for giving your opinion, Ubi. I don't s...Thanks for giving your opinion, Ubi. I don't share it - but different strokes, eh? ;)<br /><br />I don't think science and spirituality are mutually exclusive. In fact, I believe they're kissin' cousins in a way -- seeking answers but using different languages and paths to arrive at truth.Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-40889502161155052352010-12-12T16:15:58.667-05:002010-12-12T16:15:58.667-05:00Hey Frank. I know I'm pretty late to this part...Hey Frank. I know I'm pretty late to this party but there was something that I wanted to mention that I don't think you necessarily addressed (at least not sufficiently for my liking ;) ). The issue of Atheism. You dismiss it in a single sentence, saying it doesn't feel right, and I can appreciate that it doesn't feel right. But you also go on to say that we have an innate desire to look for meaning in the chaos (I'm paraphrasing), which I also completely agree with, and I think there's likely an evolutionary reason for it. But maybe that's also the REASON why atheism doesn't feel right. <br /><br />If you're looking for what is right and what is wrong, true and false, etc, I don't think 'gut feelings' are necessarily the right way to approach the issue. Given that we've already established that we're biased towards looking for, and indeed hoping for meaning, don't we need something a bit more objective? Science and philosophy is about as objective as tools that we have available to us. Sure, they're not perfect, but they're better than gut instincts, surely. <br /><br />And the other thing is, you don't have to fully understand the science and logic to accept that they're it's likely correct - after all, it's reasonably competitive and if something can be disproven, it likely will be given time. Science stands on the shoulders of giants. On that basis, if science says that there is no evidence for miracles, intervention by God, or any other mystical phenomenon (and in fact, the laws of physics would actually have to be temporarily warped in order to accomodate them!), surely it's logical to accept that? <br /><br />IMHO, what we need is a more evidence-based way of thinking on the issue of meaning. I know you're on the right track, you just need to let go of a desire to find meaning where meaning doesn't necessarily exist. I don't think it's a coincidence that the vast majority of leading scientists are atheist or strongly agnostic. And I don't think it's a deficiency of imagination either. :) It's because they know enough about the mechanics of life, the universe and everything to conclude that there is no invisble hand at play and everything is predictable once you understand the rules.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting you stop asking questions by any means. Just don't discount things just because they don't feel right. Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable, after all.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844370487843478112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-74748041560420796052010-12-10T15:04:24.781-05:002010-12-10T15:04:24.781-05:00Glad you're still reading Thumbelina. And stil...Glad you're still reading Thumbelina. And still asking. :)<br /><br />Nah, Dianne. You're not nuts. And "numb-like phases" are often necessary. We can't always be climbing. We need to pause and rest at plateaus every now and then.<br /><br />Sorry for the lag in responding. Thanks both. :)Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-29353196175456542552010-12-06T18:54:30.927-05:002010-12-06T18:54:30.927-05:00I like the sunglasses response but being experienc...I like the sunglasses response but being experience with message boards I think not posting it was probably wise<br />I learned how difficult humor is to convey and it often starts someone off <br /><br />I'm in a very non-questioning, numb like phase at the moment, and I do question myself as to why I am which is one more wee bit of proof that I'm nutsDiannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02946500110072411468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-33252066961069877842010-12-03T15:29:49.325-05:002010-12-03T15:29:49.325-05:00Just signing in to say I still read and I like thi...Just signing in to say I still read and I like this style too! Different subject matter... same ol' buddy. ;0)<br /><br />I think you should have written the sunglasses response too.<br /><br />Asking questions and seeking the answers is THE single most important thing we can do in our lives imho. It is not enough to believe because someone said so or it suits me at the time. Keep asking I say. :)Thumbelinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16797968670320215838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-89704653168576089052010-12-02T12:25:25.043-05:002010-12-02T12:25:25.043-05:00Stace, many of them are indeed desperate. Some hav...Stace, many of them are indeed desperate. Some have never built a solid, inner foundation. Some never had a chance to, being abused and/or neglected as children. Some are quite admirable - never giving up trying to improve their lives despite having the odds stacked against them.Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-57922991105866457702010-12-01T04:55:06.139-05:002010-12-01T04:55:06.139-05:00Despite myself, I can't help feeling a certain...Despite myself, I can't help feeling a certain degree of scorn for a lot of these types of people. My instinctive first response is along the lines of "harden up, shit happens, deal with it". I perceive seeking "new age" solutions as a kind of willing weakness - it practically cries out, I'm desperate and I need help! But I wish people could find the strength and answers they need within themselves.Stacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13293741467822618216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-17144747955884518602010-11-30T21:55:10.341-05:002010-11-30T21:55:10.341-05:00Skunky, there's probably something to that old...Skunky, there's probably something to that old saying that the wiser you get, the less you know.Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-92007959044479469972010-11-30T09:23:17.119-05:002010-11-30T09:23:17.119-05:00As the years progress, I have kept an open mind to...As the years progress, I have kept an open mind to much left definitively unknown. I dismiss what I reckon is the thinking of obvious crackpots (ie., a 400 year old fruitcake is a conduit to alien communication with the planet Uranus, for example). But an open mind to the more philosophical (ie., is the glass half-empty, half-full, or not even glass?).<br /><br />I do buy your comment that the vast majority of humans hereabouts (and 100% of those who comment on your blog regularly) are good-natured and good folks.Skunkfeathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563552997319253167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-17813412256715053242010-11-29T14:27:02.876-05:002010-11-29T14:27:02.876-05:00GQ, the closer we get to the end of the trail, the...GQ, the closer we get to the end of the trail, the more likely we are to be interested in learning what might or might not be waiting for us there.<br /><br />Cay, if nobody wants ownership of the line, I'll take it. It's a keeper. ;)<br /><br />Pauline, I think there's much to be learned from "peeking" over others' shoulders. Let me know if you come across anything noteworthy. :)<br /><br />Yeah, Charlie. The journey's the thing - the one we're on now and the one that's further on down the road. ;)<br /><br />Thanks all, for taking the time to read and comment.Frank Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07766219281485749395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-85167038205561403742010-11-29T11:14:13.112-05:002010-11-29T11:14:13.112-05:00Great post, Frank.
As with so many things, the jo...Great post, Frank.<br /><br />As with so many things, the journey is the thing. Personally, I lean toward the scientific end of things in that I believe that if something IS, there is a reason for it. Apples fall from trees because there is gravity. My wife senses things that turn out to be true because there is something we as yet don't understand about the underlying structure of the universe that makes it possible for such a thing occur. All one has to do is tip a toe in to the world of quantum physics to know that the universe is bizarre beyond our current capability to comprehend.<br /><br />Humans have only just begun our journey toward understanding what the universe is and nothing we have come up with to explain it so far -- be it religion or atheism or anything in between -- holds a candle to the ultimate truth behind the nature of our existence.<br /><br />Me, I'm enjoying the ride. :)Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870177600853805882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-12596308771375635892010-11-27T15:10:25.591-05:002010-11-27T15:10:25.591-05:00Can't prove anything by me which is just fine ...Can't prove anything by me which is just fine - I'm somewhere between knowing and not knowing, agreeing with Hil that it's all a process, picking flowers with Tabor and taking peeks over your shoulder at what others think. Asking the right questions is as hard as finding the right answers...Paulinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14555472024981357622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19155961.post-86463094469051606432010-11-26T20:03:48.379-05:002010-11-26T20:03:48.379-05:00If wise men were hairs, the world would need a wig...If wise men were hairs, the world would need a wig. -- from an old BookHouse bookmark. (Not sure who the real credit belongs to, but I love it.)Cay Sehnertnoreply@blogger.com